The second Trump administration has been characterized in large part by a focused effort to cut down the number of federal employees.
Through the Office of Personnel Management and Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency, the president has used highly unusual resignation offers and layoffs to shrink the workforce across agencies including the Department of Education and the Department of Veterans Affairs. There’s no official number on how many people have been laid off, but 62,530 government positions have been cut so far this year, according to data published earlier this month from global outplacement firm Challenger, Gray, & Christmas. There are likely more cuts to come.
Unions have played a major role in legal challenges to the mass firing of federal workers. On Thursday, two separate rulings came down ordering the Trump administration to reinstate these terminated employees. One ruling in response to 20 Democrat attorneys general calling for the reinstatement of fired workers came from a federal judge in Maryland. The other was issued by a judge in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California in response to a case brought by dozens of labor unions and advocacy groups. U.S. District Judge William Alsup ordered that six federal agencies reinstate thousands of probationary employees that were fired under the guidance of OPM, a move he declared illegal. The Trump administration has already filed an appeal in that case.
The American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees (AFSCME) was one of the plaintiffs in that second challenge. The union represents 1.4 million public service workers across the country in federal, state, and local government, as well as the nonprofit sector. AFSCME’s president, Lee Saunders, spoke with Fortune about the threat that public sector workers are under, what his members are feeling, and how the union plans to fight back.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Fortune: What are AFSCME members feeling right now?
President Saunders: They’re feeling under attack. They believe in the importance of public services, and yet you see them being attacked every single day by this current administration.
They’re frightened, but they also know that they’ve got to make their voices heard and they’ve got to fight back, and that’s exactly what they’re doing. Their union is supporting them 100% by talking about the importance of public service, and challenging some of the things that this administration is doing, and whether it’s in the courts, or whether it’s in the media, or whether it’s on the streets. We’re going to continue to do that to make our point and get our point across.
AFSCME is one of the plaintiffs in the case which was just ruled in favor of reinstating fired probationary federal workers. Many are seeing this as a win for federal workers, but that ruling does not affect this week’s deadline set by the Trump administration requiring all agencies to send the president and the OPM plans for more layoffs. What could the future look like for these workers?
This is a huge victory for these workers.
It will be challenged, but we’re going to continue to put the full force of the union behind filing these kinds of lawsuits. That’s really important, but we’ve also got to go on offense and not play defense all the time, and we’re going to continue to do that. What we’re doing right now is organizing and mobilizing and educating our members across the country by having phone calls, by going to town hall meetings.
One of the things that we’ve got to do is continue to organize. Seventy percent of Americans believe that unions are absolutely necessary in this country and 88% of young people [view them favorably]. We’re going to spend resources, and we’re going to be talking to workers, asking them to be represented by us or other unions so they have a seat at the table.
It feels like every day there is a new development related to the DOGE layoffs. How would you advise people to keep track of the whirlwind of actions?
I think it’s up to AFSCME and the labor movement and our allies and friends to continue to talk about what this administration is trying to do to hurt working people. We’ve got to enlist people within the labor movement and outside the labor movement to make their voices heard. We cannot just sit idly by and be silent when this destruction—and that’s exactly what this is—is taking place at the federal level, [which will] roll down to the state and local level, with possible huge cuts in federal programs. State governments rely on federal money to fund programs at the state level; they get about 33% of [their revenue] from the federal government. That helps provide public services at the state, city, and local level.
It’s all about continuing to educate. It’s all about asking [workers] to not be silent, but to make their voices heard and to fight back like never before.
[When asked for comment, a spokesperson for the White House told Fortune: “President Trump returned to Washington with a mandate from the American people to bring about unprecedented change in our federal government to uproot waste, fraud, and abuse.”]
Elon Musk reposted a Tweet implying that public sector workers were responsible for mass murders under people like Hitler, Mao and Stalin. What do you make of this comment, and the attacks on public sector workers generally?
I will try to control my language, but… it is a hateful comment for him to [retweet] that and compare our public sector workers and our members saying that “Hitler, Stalin and Mao didn’t murder millions, but [their] public sector service workers did.” Now just think about that. That’s where he’s coming from, and we’ve got to get that message out.
He has no clue what workers are faced with every single day. He has no clue what they do to improve the lives of our citizens in our communities across the country and to improve upon public services, yet he makes a statement like that. I mean, it is unbelievable, and we’ve got to make sure that people understand that this is what he is saying, and this is what folks in this administration believe.
[Fortune reached out to Elon Musk but did not get a response.]
How can unions protect workers if the government wants to fire them?
We’re filing these lawsuits—that’s number one. We are pushing even though we understand that the climate here in Washington, D.C. is not the best. But we’ve still got to continue to go on the offense, as I said earlier. We are supporting the PRO Act, which would give workers the right to have a seat at the table to improve labor labor law in this country. We’re doing the same thing with the Public Freedom to Negotiate Act for public service workers.
We have the ability to mobilize every single day—to mobilize union members, but also workers who aren’t in unions in our communities across the country. Because this is impacting them too. The actions that are being proposed have an impact on everyone that relies upon public services: Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security. All of these programs are under attack, and we’ve got to do what we do best, and that’s exactly what we are doing.
This narrative against public sector workers has come on quickly and strongly. How do you combat the sentiments coming from those with huge platforms like Trump and Musk?
It’s not only federal workers. It really is all workers. There’s an attack on all workers right now. I guess the way that I can answer that question is that reality is now hitting people in the face. I mean, they’re feeling it. People are being laid off indiscriminately. People are being fired. Their rights are being taken away from them. Services that the American people relied upon are being cut, and they’re proposing to do a lot more damage. So I mean, here’s the playbook that they talked about, and now they’re putting in an action, and we’ve got to make sure that people understand the impact that it’s going to have on them and their families. You’ve got to react to it in a way where we ask people to fight back and to make their voices heard. You cannot sit by silently and watch this happen.
